Of course you were Dave, of course you were...

   Liz, I was being Sarcastic because I thought it was a bloody stupid idea, obviously that was lost on you.

   Dave. The fact you would even consider cameras placed in people's homes to check on their conduct marks you out as one who is happy to sleepwalk into the future with no consideration to the legacy your generation will leave its children. This John Nash, game theory inspired view of the predictability of human conduct as frameworked by the assumption put forward by Isaiah Berlin that all will act purely selfishly thus prompting the kind of positive freedom you proffer is a sad narrow and bitter view of the world which in the end promotes tyranny even if the goals are initially laudable. That's you I fear, a laudable zealot driven by cynicism, misguided by simplistic solutions which create a greater evil than that which are meant to be eliminated.

   Pat, I agree with most of what you are saying about the way society is heading compared how it was 40 years ago. Most of these yobs on the streets have not been bought up the way they should have been and they know that it is too easy for them to get away with committing criminal acts as the justice system is not exactly great at the moment. I dont however agree with you saying I have no self respect and saying I am a litter lout. Although it wouldn't suprise me that the government had our DNA and eye scans on file already from hospital blood tests and optical examinations. This dicussion has gone off the original point of the cameras having tannoys.

   My Goodness, are you condoning littering Pat as it would be humiliating to someone who litters in the beautiful Town of Eccles to ask them to pick it up? Maybe you should read your rants beforeposting them eh? Your argument is totally over the top and has become childish, grow up!!

   "If", says Mrs. L. Shot, "you have nothing to hide, then what are you afraid of?"

I'm afraid of a society, Mrs. L. Shot, where people deny there is any such thing as objective morality - old-fashioned right and wrong because, as many have predicted, it will inevitably lead to a police state. What I have to lose is my dignity and my freedom. I worked for the police in the 70's. They used to arrest criminals and the courts used to punish them. I was forced out of my home by violent neighbours a year ago. I lost everything I had, including my son's school, because over five years the police did nothing. We need cameras because the police have lost the plot. We have thugs because we don't believe that bringing up children need involve a committed relationship. I'm no do-gooder. I believe in morality and I believe in law and I believe in responsibility. It is these things we need to foster again, as we did at the end of the 18th century. It is the do-gooders - the liberals with their armies of social workers who are leading us into a police state. It as long been said: liberalism leads to legalism. It is the left who are dragging us into a totalitarian state. The very phrase "what are you afraid of" is crushing in its ignorance and stupidity. Right now, teaching unions and other public service unions are making agreements with this government to take over the role of parents, (check Frank Field's White Paper) even though these same people admit that only a minoity fail to bring up their children. I am afraid of people like you who have no self respect, no sense of the inherent dignity of the human person, and no political intelligence. If YOU have nothing to be afraid of, why don't you pre-empt the government's schemes and present yourself to the police to provide your fingerprints, DNA and have your eyes scanned, pick up your ID card, and have a coupe social workers (or council workers) come into your home. If you believe ths is not a problem, what are you waiting for? We had no cameras 40 years ago, and barely any crime. No contraception/abortion, and children were cherished and properly raised. No doubt when you accidentally drop a piece of litter and find yourself the subject of public humiliation you will suddenly discover the ability to think. Or perhaps you're an 'environmental criminal' who put potato peelings in with the glass bottles? Or maybe you're just working in the public services and raking it in at our expense, eh? See you in court. Pat

   Liz, CCTV with Tannoys on Liverpool Road in Eccles are not going to lead to the Government placing cameras in the home of everyone in this country to ensure that no-one is abusing their children, but then again, what a great idea, have you looked into the true statistics of child abuse in this country? The cameras on Liverpool Road are there to Prevent Crime and protect the public, why are there so many negative comments about this? We all walk around in Eccles and there are many cameras in the town centre, they have had speakers on them for a long, long time yet they have never recieved so much as a raised eyebrow. Unlike the New world Order people on here I can been to various countries which are ex Bloc and I can tell you that the UK resembles in no shape or form a Police state, to begin with, your group would not be allowed to operate and therefore you wouldn't have the voice or the tools such as the internet to whine so spectacularly as you have on here. Find something more constructive to do, the cameras are now there, they will be there to stay and maybe one day the doubters will be grateful they are there, after all, if they have a family member assaulted or murdered, would they then say that because they oppose CCTV they don't want it reviewed to catch the offender.. no, they will be the first to ask for the footage. CCTV has and does save lives, the CCTV industry is fully regulated by the Security Industry Authority, all Operators are passed through the Criminal Records Bureau and if they have the slightest smudge on their criminal record they are not granted a license. I look forward to hearing your argument in return.

   Ok, give me proof that they are not working. The stats that prove they do are not for public viewing. Have you ever been to certain areas of the Eastern Bloc which are Police State's? Are you saying that all the CCTV operators are Paedophiles or voyeurs? A good example that proves CCTV works. A year or so ago in Eccles a young lad was dis-embowelled outside a pub. The CCTV operators were then able to direct the police to the whereabouts not only of the weapon used but also of the offenders. Also, the tannoys on Eccles CCTV have been in use now for 10years and only until now it has caused some cotroversy. Why are you so afraid of change if it means we will be safer to walk the streets??

   If you have not got anything to hide then why object???

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Are you a mother of a young child? Let's assume you are or have been. Say the issue of child abuse means the Government decides it would be right to put cameras in people's homes, in the bedrooms of children to make sure you, as a parent, are not abusing your son or daughter. Child abuse is objectionable, no-one would disagree with that. We all want to put a stop to it once and for all. So let's put cameras in everyone's home and monitor what goes on. That's okay with you is it? After all if you have nothing to hide then why object? I ask you Mrs cliché, where do you draw the line?

   Personally, I think they are a great idea. If you stop and look around Eccles you have the local youths drinking and selling drugs in the streets, fighting and causing all kinds of trouble. If these cameras were not there to film what was going on and back the police up then you would be complaining that they were getting away with more. The tannoys will probably shock them to stop what they are or are about to do as then they will be reminded that all is being filmed and they should stop now. All these do-gooders who waffle on about infringement of human rights need to stop and think what if you were attacked one night in the street and there were no witnesses apart from the CCTV and the voice from above said something then yet again they will hopefully stop and think before doing anything. If you have not got anything to hide then why object??? Mrs L.Shot, Eccles

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So you have to erode freedoms to protect them? That makes no sense. Mrs L Shot, you are sleepwalking into a police state and are far too dumb to realise what is happening. If zealots like Bliar are entrusted with protecting freedom you can only be left with tyranny. Why do you use the phrase 'do-gooders' as an insult? Why is it wrong to want good? And, of course, by definition, if you are distancing your own beliefs from that which is good - that which is right - you are admitting that which you supporting is wrong. You also admit that CCTV is not stopping trouble in Eccles, you just blindly suggest it would be worse without the cameras, Where is your evidence? Where is the proof?

   Whats the big deal here? We do not have enough Police on the streets and the PCSO's do not have any powers of arrest. I think the voices from the tannoy will shock the offender into thinking twice before committing an offence. Thank the government for turning this country into a joke.

   Personally, I think they are a great idea. If you stop and look around Eccles you have the local youths drinking and selling drugs in the streets, fighting and causing all kinds of trouble. If these cameras were not there to film what was going on and back the police up then you would be complaining that they were getting away with more. The tannoys will probably shock them to stop what they are or are about to do as then they will be reminded that all is being filmed and they should stop now. All these do-gooders who waffle on about infringement of human rights need to stop and think what if you were attacked one night in the street and there were no witnesses apart from the CCTV and the voice from above said something then yet again they will hopefully stop and think before doing anything. If you have not got anything to hide then why object???

   Time people stood upto to this fascist government and disputed this evil control over the masses. How long before the microchip plant in everyone?

   I think most ordinary people would agree that this is absurd, and everyone knows this is just one of a whole raft of measures which are putting together a police state.

Anyone who doesn't think it will also include the hardworking taxpayer or pensioner who refuses to pay his council tax or dares to demonstrate peacefully against New Labour, or even, as one old bloke found, to shout 'rubbish at a New Labour conference - anyone who thinks it won't come to this (and quickly) is part of the problem. What is alarming is how many jobsworths go along with this. Our public services no longer serve the public, but the State.

What's truly absurd is that we're the mugs killing ourselves with overwork to pay for it with our taxes.

But there is hope. The local electons - don't vote for any candidates of the main parties. Make a protest vote and frighten the lives out of them. That'll teach them a little more respct. And your local Councillor does'n't just sort out 'local problems'. He increasingly goes along - as do or schools and other public bodies - with a state agenda. He belongs to a council machine which allows our children to be fingerprinted in school when they know it would be rejected by adults, and our children to be offered abortion without parents' knowledge, and sex education programmes that would require a warning on late night television. Health authorities in Scotland are being advised not to call parents'mum and dad' lest it offend gays.

'New Labour, New Britain'. You thought that was just a slogan, until now.....

Use your vote, and remind these people who they serve - the taxpayers of Salford, not Blair. Vote against the main parties. Vote for loonies, if you have to, because they couldn't be more dangerous than these lot. Also you can join the Taxpayers' Alliance. I have. Pat